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Hello I'm Rabbi Jill Maderer
from Congregation Rodeph Shalom

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in Philadelphia.

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And I am grateful to be here
in conversation with the Reform

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Movement and with Rabbi Danya
Ruttenberg about her newest

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book, On Repentance and
Repair: Making Amends

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in an Unapologetic World.

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Rabbi Ruttenberg,
your book lays out

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so much brokenness in
this world, in our lives,

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in our relationships.

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And yet at the same time,
through Jewish wisdom,

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it really provides a path
into hope, and repair,

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and possibility.

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Can you to start us off?

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Can you give us a
definition of t'shuvah?

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T'shuvah is a Hebrew
word that is often

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translated as "repentance",
but it actually

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really means "returning".

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Like you, in Hebrew, might
buy a bus ticket that's haloch

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v'shuv, right, a going
there and a coming back.

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That we're coming back to where
we were meant to be all along.

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T'shuvah is also an
answer to a question.

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So it's a way of coming
back to finding the answers,

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to the person that we wanted to
be, to living in our integrity,

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to living in connection
with other people,

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to living in connection
with the divine,

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to living in harmony with
our integrity and our values.

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So if the work of t'shuvah is
really the work of the person

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who has done wrong, who has
committed a transgression

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or harmed someone else,
how is it that in the work

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of t'shuvah, we are
centering the victim

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and the victim's needs?

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So the work of naming and owning
the harm that we have caused,

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if it's really just about
us, if it's about me,

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me, me, I've done wrong,
I'm so bad, it's all me,

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and we're not really looking
at the person who was hurt,

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and really getting what we
did, and caring for them,

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and really trying to figure
out how we have impacted them,

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and how we can try to--

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best we can-- repair
the hole in the cosmos

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that we have created, and
to attend to their needs

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and to become the kind of people
who don't do this thing ever

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again to anyone
else, then we're not

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doing the work of repentance.

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We're doing a sort of
an egocentric exercise.

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And so if our repentance work
does not at all times take

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the victim, the person
who has been impacted's

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needs and care and concern into
account first and foremost,

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then something's missing.

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Now there's the victim who's
been directly impacted,

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but then there may
be indirect impact

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or some kind of witnessing.

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So what are the
layers of impact?

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I mean, it's contextual, right?

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If there's something
that happens

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inside a marriage and the only
two people who are impacted

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are the two people inside
that marriage, that's

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one kind of harm and
one kind of repair work

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that's going to be involved.

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But so often in our
world, harm isn't just

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the sort of simple equation.

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There is the person
who caused harm.

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There is a person
who is affected.

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There are witnesses
to the harm who

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may be receiving cues about
what's OK and what's not OK.

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There may be witnesses to the
harm who are harmed indirectly

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because they are now put on
notice, that suddenly this

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is not a safe space
for them either,

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and this is not a
safe culture for them,

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and their own concerns will
not be believed or cared for.

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There may be people whose own
past traumas are triggered.

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And a culture of what
is safe and not safe,

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it may be created.

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And if we're thinking
about institutional trust,

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there may be people whose
sense of safety and belief

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in an institution
may be impacted

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by the nature of the harm.

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If we're thinking about a
cultural or national level,

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it has the potential to shape
entire systems of power,

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and who has power, and
how that power is wielded.

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Now we're using the term victim.

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And I've also seen the term
survivor or impacted individual

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or targeted individual.

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How are you
approaching your terms?

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It's complicated,
and there is not

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one right, magical
answer that's going

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to address every situation.

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I tend to use victim
as an umbrella term

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because there are so many
different kinds of situations

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and so many different
types of harm, right.

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Forgetting to pick
you up at the airport

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and stepping on your foot
are some kinds of harm,

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and systemic racism and sexual
abuse are other kinds of harm,

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and it's hard to describe
them all in one word.

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Some people choose to
use the word survivor

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to describe their experience
of coming through trauma.

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And the decision to use that
word is often very personal,

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and for some people
it denotes a process

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of getting through healing.

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And that's really powerful.

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And, of course, if that
is the correct word

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to describe your
experience, then absolutely,

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you should use it.

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And I try not to
be presumptuous.

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And so I tend to use victim
as a more umbrella term

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to describe someone who has been
impacted or injured by harm.

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And we all do harm.

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We're human beings.

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We are imperfect.

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And so we are blessed
in our Jewish lives

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that we have this
guidance from Maimonides

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and from our tradition.

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Can you tell us, how does
my Maimonides guide us?

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When I read the
Laws of Repentance,

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I see five distinct steps
that really take someone

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through a process
of repentance work.

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OK.

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What are the five steps?

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So we've got confession.

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Own the harm fully
that you have caused.

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Then we have starting to change.

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Begin to do the work to
become the different person

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and the kind of person
who doesn't do that thing.

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Amends.

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What do you need to do to repair
the situation that you caused?

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Then apology, and we'll
talk in a moment about why

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apology is so late in the game.

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And then the fifth
and final step

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is, when you have the chance
to make that same injurious

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choice, you do
something different.

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You make different choices.

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You naturally, and organically,
through all the work

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of repentance and repair,
have become the kind of person

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who chooses in a different way.

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Many of our communities,
our institutions,

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are finally coming
face-to-face with brokenness,

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with wrongdoing, sometimes
even tragic wrongdoing coming

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from within their systems
and within our systems.

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Can you speak to how these steps
of personal t'shuvah can be

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brought to the work we
are and need to be engaged

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in our institutions?

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I have found [they] work
on the personal level,

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the deeply, deeply most intimate
personal level of our lives.

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They work on the
institutional level,

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on the broader social
level, on a national level.

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And when we hold
them up, they can

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be a mirror that
illuminates what's

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missing in our processes.

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When we say, "Wow,
there's some real work

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that's happening here.

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Let's see where we are."

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And then you say, "OK.

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This confession happened.

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What does it look like?

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Has it done everything
it needs to do?

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Are victims feeling cared for?

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What about starting to change.

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What has changed, what hasn't?

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Are we clear that the
person is beginning

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to do the work in a way that
won't cause the harm again,

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that systems are changing?

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What amends have happened,
what amends haven't happened?

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Are the person or people
harmed getting what they need?

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What apologies have
and haven't happened?

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Are the people who
are harmed, the person

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they were harmed, are
they feeling appeased,

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and if not, why not, and what
needs to happen to get there?"

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And most critically,
what needs to happen

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to make sure that this is
never going to happen again?

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And what needs to happen
so that everything

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that happened steps
one, two, three and four

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were so profound that when we
get to step five, it's obvious.

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Naturally, step five
should not be a choice.

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Step five should be a natural
and organic outcome of steps

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one, two, three and four.

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By the time you get to step five
it's like, well so clearly, I

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am so different
and so transformed

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by all of the other things
I've been doing that there's

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no way I could possibly be
over there doing the things

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that I did before,
those horrible things.

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I think so often
in our institutions

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that the more our
institutions of trust

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can show up and act like
institutions of trust

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when things go wrong instead
of offering what psychologist

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Jennifer Freyd calls
institutional betrayal, right,

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which is like another
layer of trauma.

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Another injury on top
of the original injury.

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When I love and feel connected
to a place that is my home

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and it doesn't live up to my
expectations when I'm harmed,

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then it's another
layer of trauma.

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And when it shows up and is
there for me when I need it,

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even if it's not 70
sqajillion dollars,

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if they just show up and
say, you have needs now

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and I see you, I
think it just does

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so much for people's sense
of humanity and being seen.

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Our institutions
have deep work to do.

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What do you describe as
institutional courage?

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So this is also--
that's also a phrase

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from the work of Dr. Jennifer
Freyd, who is tremendous.

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Institutional courage is
not, as she says, a binary.

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That there are not
institutions that are brave

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and institutions
that are not brave.

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It is a journey.

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And every institution needs to
find their way, step by step,

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and to do the
thing that is scary

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but that meets the needs of
the people that were harmed.

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That is the thing
that feels vulnerable

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but that attends to the needs of
the people who have trusted it.

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And then to walk the
next step, and what

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is the next step after that?

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OK, it's great that we did
this, but we can't stop here.

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What is the next
thing after this

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that we can do to
be bigger and braver

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and to better model
our Jewish values,

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and to better be an example
of what caring for our people

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really can be.

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And that every time an
institution takes that step,

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it shows every other
institution what's possible,

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and it offers more healing
and more light into the world,

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and it cares better for
the people who need it to.

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Let's begin with the first step.

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How would you
describe confession?

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Confession is about owning
the harm that you have caused

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and owning it fully.

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It's about no hedging,
no qualifications, no,

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"but I really
intended really well

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and I was just trying
to be a good person."

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It requires, even before
you do the confession

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step, a little bit of that
cheshbon hanefesh, accounting

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of the soul, to really cross
that bridge between the story

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of yourself as the hero and
the good guy who's always

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doing right, and having to face,
you didn't do the right thing.

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No matter what it is, you have
to just name it, own it, fully.

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And definitely, it has to be at
least to the person or people

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that witnessed and
experience the harm.

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If you say something
racist in a staff meeting,

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then all of the people
present in that staff meeting

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have to hear your confession,
whether you put it on the team

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Slack, whether you name it in
the staff meeting next week,

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whether you catch yourself
in the moment and say, "Oop,

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I just heard what came out of
my mouth and that wasn't right,"

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and then correct
yourself and own it.

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Whatever it is, you
have to confess fully.

247
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,790
And it's praiseworthy, even,
to do it in a more public way,

248
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:10,900
to tell more people that
this is what happened,

249
00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:15,340
as a way of asking for help,
as a way of accountability.

250
00:15:15,340 --> 00:15:18,070
It's a way of saying, I'm
going on a repentance journey,

251
00:15:18,070 --> 00:15:22,120
and I want to change, and
I'm inviting all of you

252
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,610
to help me because
I can't do it alone.

253
00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:29,020
What is the potential
impact for the victim

254
00:15:29,020 --> 00:15:32,680
to hear this confession?

255
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,490
So this is really
part of why I think

256
00:15:36,490 --> 00:15:39,490
that all of the
steps of repentance

257
00:15:39,490 --> 00:15:42,250
are deeply
victim-centric, even if we

258
00:15:42,250 --> 00:15:46,250
don't see the victim named
in each of the steps.

259
00:15:46,250 --> 00:15:50,080
So for example, in
the confession step,

260
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,600
suddenly there's an
end to the gaslighting.

261
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,500
There is suddenly an
end to any question

262
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,290
about where culpability lies.

263
00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:02,020
The victim can stop
questioning themselves.

264
00:16:02,020 --> 00:16:03,220
"Did this really happen?

265
00:16:03,220 --> 00:16:05,290
Was it really that bad?

266
00:16:05,290 --> 00:16:07,750
Am I making this up?"

267
00:16:07,750 --> 00:16:10,360
A victim who's clear on
what happened but maybe

268
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,720
isn't believed by
everybody in the community

269
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,570
has that validation
and vindication.

270
00:16:16,570 --> 00:16:19,180
"See, look, they're owning it."

271
00:16:19,180 --> 00:16:22,570
Everybody around now is
clear on what happened,

272
00:16:22,570 --> 00:16:25,720
and that victim can
get the full support

273
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,470
that they have deserved
all this time from everyone

274
00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:30,730
in the community.

275
00:16:30,730 --> 00:16:33,380


276
00:16:33,380 --> 00:16:35,920
And that's something that,
ideally, is negotiated

277
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,900
with the person who was harmed.

278
00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:39,850
You don't make
amends at a person.

279
00:16:39,850 --> 00:16:42,850
You make them to the
person and with the person.

280
00:16:42,850 --> 00:16:46,360
And what would feel
like the correct amends

281
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,180
to one individual
may feel different

282
00:16:49,180 --> 00:16:53,740
than a totally different
individual who has experienced

283
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:54,920
the same kind of injury.

284
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,280
So restitution can
be financial, it

285
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,140
doesn't need to be financial.

286
00:16:59,140 --> 00:17:00,850
It can be direct
with the victim,

287
00:17:00,850 --> 00:17:05,859
but also indirect with a
community or with a cause.

288
00:17:05,859 --> 00:17:08,710
Once I've moved
through and I've really

289
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:12,400
started to work these
steps, I've confessed,

290
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,440
I've started to change, I've
made amends, at this point,

291
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,400
when can I expect to return
to the way things were?

292
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,700
When can I go back to my
position, my job, my status,

293
00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:26,710
my honor, my relationship?

294
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:30,040
Part of the amends
process is accepting

295
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,500
that actions have consequences.

296
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:36,140
Things are different
than they were before.

297
00:17:36,140 --> 00:17:37,330
It's just a fact.

298
00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:38,770
The person who was
injured doesn't

299
00:17:38,770 --> 00:17:42,820
get to automagically go back
in time, and neither do you.

300
00:17:42,820 --> 00:17:49,300
And the really critical piece of
this work that a lot of people

301
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:53,590
struggle with is that you don't
get to just punch the buttons

302
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:58,120
and say, now everything
is better so I'm back.

303
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:01,090
And it may be that if
you are doing this work

304
00:18:01,090 --> 00:18:06,190
in a deep and sincere way,
that people will see naturally

305
00:18:06,190 --> 00:18:11,140
and organically that
you are on their team.

306
00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:15,190
The person who was not
invited to game night

307
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:17,050
might be invited
back to game night

308
00:18:17,050 --> 00:18:21,130
as a result of their
very sincere actions.

309
00:18:21,130 --> 00:18:23,440
But somebody who is
coming into that space

310
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,550
with the entitlement, "OK,
give me my status back.

311
00:18:27,550 --> 00:18:30,760
Of course, I have
earned it because I

312
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,560
have checked those
boxes," is somebody

313
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,220
who does not understand
the harm that they caused.

314
00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:40,480
Moving to the fourth
step of t'shuvah.

315
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,230
How would you describe
apology, which

316
00:18:44,230 --> 00:18:47,980
is remarkably late in the game?

317
00:18:47,980 --> 00:18:50,870
And there's a reason
why apology is so late.

318
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:54,010
So you have already done--

319
00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:56,180
this is the end of the process.

320
00:18:56,180 --> 00:18:59,170
You've already done,
basically, just about as much

321
00:18:59,170 --> 00:19:04,150
as you can to try to sew
up that hole in the cosmos

322
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:06,700
that you, yourself, created.

323
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:09,940
You have owned
what you have done.

324
00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:13,780
Beginning to and
continuing to try to change

325
00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:16,000
and grow and transform.

326
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,620
You have done what you can
to repair, in whatever way

327
00:19:20,620 --> 00:19:21,580
that you can.

328
00:19:21,580 --> 00:19:23,980
And by now, hopefully,
you've gotten it.

329
00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:25,120
You've gotten the memo.

330
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,880
You've gotten that there's
another human being

331
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,710
that you hurt.

332
00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:35,440
And so hopefully, by
now, it matters to you.

333
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,930
You see that there's
another person there.

334
00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:41,950
And the apology is not
about checking a box

335
00:19:41,950 --> 00:19:44,840
and getting off the hook.

336
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,920
It is about communicating
to another person

337
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,160
that you are sorry
that you hurt them.

338
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,420
And Maimonides uses very
victim-centric language

339
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:56,110
in the apology.

340
00:19:56,110 --> 00:19:59,560
He talks about, you
need to appease them.

341
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,945
It's like l'fayes otam
[to appease them].

342
00:20:01,945 --> 00:20:03,700
It's not about
saying certain words,

343
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:08,080
it's about, what would be
the thing that would appease,

344
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:09,730
care for this person?

345
00:20:09,730 --> 00:20:14,050
And so it's got to be from
this open, flowing heart that

346
00:20:14,050 --> 00:20:20,210
sees the other person and
wants to have them feel better.

347
00:20:20,210 --> 00:20:27,230
What happens in the case of
the apology encounter that

348
00:20:27,230 --> 00:20:30,560
would cause further
harm to the victim?

349
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,670
What happens if that apology
is actually unwelcome?

350
00:20:35,670 --> 00:20:39,660
So it's difficult, and
it's a complex dance,

351
00:20:39,660 --> 00:20:43,840
because we know that
we need to apologize

352
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:49,190
and in a victim-centric
model, again, it's

353
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:51,800
not about a cathartic
experience for the perpetrator.

354
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,260
I've heard so many
examples of somebody

355
00:20:54,260 --> 00:20:56,288
being ambushed at
the last minute

356
00:20:56,288 --> 00:20:57,830
or called in the
middle of the night.

357
00:20:57,830 --> 00:21:01,280
And it's like, the experience
of the person who is harmed

358
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:08,760
is not on the harm-doers
mind, and that's not healing.

359
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,360
That's not repair.

360
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,310
And so we need to
step way, way back

361
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:17,550
and have the humility to
know that sometimes we

362
00:21:17,550 --> 00:21:19,440
don't get our
cathartic experience,

363
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,960
and that living
with that has to be

364
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,240
one of the consequences
of our actions.

365
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,620
And that's just
part of the work.

366
00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:31,100
My rabbi, Rabbi Alan
Lew, zichrono livrachah,

367
00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:32,900
may his memory for
a blessing, used

368
00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:38,660
to say, how could the person get
to exactly the same situation?

369
00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:41,300
And then he would answer in
his kind of Brooklyn accent,

370
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:44,480
like, if you don't do the
work, you will find yourself

371
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,910
in exactly the same situation.

372
00:21:46,910 --> 00:21:50,840
That our unresolved
anger that we

373
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,270
don't address, that
we don't deal with,

374
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:57,710
will insert itself,
somehow, maybe not

375
00:21:57,710 --> 00:22:01,520
in that exact situation
with that same person.

376
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:07,430
But our anger will blow up
in some place, somewhere.

377
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:13,130
Our unaddressed
fear of commitment

378
00:22:13,130 --> 00:22:16,700
will explode in another
relationship somewhere

379
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:19,730
along the way, somehow, somehow.

380
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:24,440
Or whatever issues that are
playing out in the workplace

381
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,660
will somehow go through.

382
00:22:26,660 --> 00:22:28,730
Like our internalized
white supremacy

383
00:22:28,730 --> 00:22:31,940
will somehow manifest
in another way.

384
00:22:31,940 --> 00:22:35,600
The systems and structures
in our HR department

385
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,800
that manage to effectively
bury this complaint

386
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,130
are going to find a way
to harm someone else if we

387
00:22:43,130 --> 00:22:45,210
don't address the systems.

388
00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:50,120
So when we don't do
the work, we continue

389
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,180
to find ways to
manifest the harm.

390
00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:57,170
And it may look different, but
the patterns are undeniable.

391
00:22:57,170 --> 00:23:00,830
We go from first contact,
to the Trail of Tears,

392
00:23:00,830 --> 00:23:06,380
to Wounded Knee, to the
Dakota Access Pipeline.

393
00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:12,560
We go from slavery, to lynching,
to redlining, Jim Crow,

394
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,040
to mass incarceration and
voter suppression, right?

395
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,360
It doesn't have to look
exactly the same for it

396
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,950
to be the same harm.

397
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:25,190
And when we don't
do the work, we

398
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:27,470
will find ourselves back there.

399
00:23:27,470 --> 00:23:29,480
When we think
about institutions,

400
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,100
when we think about nations,
the work of confession,

401
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:37,560
the work of starting
to change requires

402
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:45,640
rethinking some of how things
have been, and that is scary,

403
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,700
and that is threatening.

404
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:53,770
And it doesn't always
require that suddenly we

405
00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:56,860
are dismantling everything
that has ever existed

406
00:23:56,860 --> 00:23:59,530
and creating something
new from the ground up.

407
00:23:59,530 --> 00:24:04,270
It sometimes just requires
shaping new systems

408
00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:09,910
and creating better,
more whole systems,

409
00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:12,820
and it's a vulnerability.

410
00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:15,280
It opens us to vulnerability.

411
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:16,960
When we make
ourselves vulnerable

412
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,880
and own the harm
that we have caused,

413
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,670
we can create new
futures for ourselves

414
00:24:21,670 --> 00:24:24,460
and for everyone who is hurt.

415
00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:27,850
And for institutions,
and for organizations,

416
00:24:27,850 --> 00:24:30,970
and nations, and
individuals, it's scary,

417
00:24:30,970 --> 00:24:34,060
but it offers a new path
of wholeness for everybody.

418
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:37,180


419
00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:39,790
Wider American culture
is very individualistic,

420
00:24:39,790 --> 00:24:42,530
and very, everybody
look out for themselves.

421
00:24:42,530 --> 00:24:46,510
And so when harm happens, we
don't, as a wider American

422
00:24:46,510 --> 00:24:49,810
culture, have the
tools to figure out

423
00:24:49,810 --> 00:24:53,650
how to hold harm
doers accountable,

424
00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:57,730
or to give people who are
hurt the tools to make

425
00:24:57,730 --> 00:24:59,290
sense of that.

426
00:24:59,290 --> 00:25:02,260
It's this very kind of like,
let go, just let go of it,

427
00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:06,520
is a survival
mechanism that people

428
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,830
use because they don't have a
lot of other coping mechanisms.

429
00:25:12,830 --> 00:25:16,180
We live in the kind of
culture where people in power

430
00:25:16,180 --> 00:25:19,930
don't have a lot of incentive
to do t'shuvah work,

431
00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:27,460
because it is often, financially
in their best interests not to.

432
00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:30,700
And that often, when
we see change happen,

433
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:33,250
it's because it is in their
financial best interest

434
00:25:33,250 --> 00:25:35,800
to change the name
of the racist mascot.

435
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,160
There are all of these cultural
factors that are in play,

436
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,890
and we live in a culture
that really, really

437
00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:44,470
loves forgiveness,
and really loves

438
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:46,630
to pressure the
victim into forgiving,

439
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:49,870
and that assumes that at the
moment the victim has forgiven,

440
00:25:49,870 --> 00:25:53,380
then everything is fine
and back to how it was

441
00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:55,760
and nobody is holding the
harm doer accountable.

442
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,260
Yeah.

443
00:25:56,260 --> 00:25:57,670
I'm just grateful
that Maimonides

444
00:25:57,670 --> 00:25:59,230
has given us this gift.

445
00:25:59,230 --> 00:26:03,760
The person t'shuvah can do
all of their t'shuvah work,

446
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,170
can do--

447
00:26:05,170 --> 00:26:09,310
complete master of t'shuvah,
can get right with themselves,

448
00:26:09,310 --> 00:26:13,570
can get right with God, can go
to do all of the things that

449
00:26:13,570 --> 00:26:17,410
they need to do and be ready
to go apologize to God at Yom

450
00:26:17,410 --> 00:26:21,310
Kippur and all of that
stuff, even if they are never

451
00:26:21,310 --> 00:26:22,580
forgiven.

452
00:26:22,580 --> 00:26:26,290
So this notion that the
victim has to forgive them

453
00:26:26,290 --> 00:26:31,060
so that they can finish their
repentance work is false.

454
00:26:31,060 --> 00:26:34,733
If the person coming to
you isn't really doing

455
00:26:34,733 --> 00:26:37,150
the repentance work, if it
seems like they're checking off

456
00:26:37,150 --> 00:26:40,300
the boxes, they're
like apologizing,

457
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:43,300
but they really haven't
owned what they're doing.

458
00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:47,140
If somebody's saying
you should forgive,

459
00:26:47,140 --> 00:26:49,810
but they haven't even begun the
repentance work, none of that.

460
00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:53,020
Then there's definitely
no obligation to forgive.

461
00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:55,720
That's also part of it.

462
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:01,440
And if someone is doing the
real, honest, thoughtful, clear

463
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,880
work of repentance, if they
are owning fully what they did,

464
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,240
if they are trying
to change, really

465
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,670
meaningfully, if
they are attempting

466
00:27:11,670 --> 00:27:15,510
to do real amends, if
they are coming to you

467
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:20,130
and doing everything they can
to appease you, to pacify you,

468
00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:24,283
to care for you and
in a loving apology.

469
00:27:24,283 --> 00:27:25,950
And if the apology
doesn't land, they're

470
00:27:25,950 --> 00:27:29,070
coming back and bringing
an accountability team,

471
00:27:29,070 --> 00:27:32,430
as Maimonides suggests so
that they can make sure

472
00:27:32,430 --> 00:27:35,400
that apology is landing,
or so that they can have

473
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,290
some help making
sure that you're

474
00:27:38,290 --> 00:27:41,680
cared for in that
negotiation or whatever.

475
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,840
If somebody is really,
really, really coming

476
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,633
to you with an open-hearted
way and you're still

477
00:27:47,633 --> 00:27:49,300
having trouble forgiving
them, maybe you

478
00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:51,150
need to check yourself.

479
00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:56,820
Are you stuck in a victim mode?

480
00:27:56,820 --> 00:28:00,390
Is it benefiting you
to lord this over them?

481
00:28:00,390 --> 00:28:04,800
Are you being
unnecessarily petty?

482
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,620
What's going-- you know,
like, check yourself

483
00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:12,240
to see what's going on that you
can't find a way to, again, not

484
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,650
find that warm, fuzzy place,
but to just close the accounts.

485
00:28:16,650 --> 00:28:19,740


486
00:28:19,740 --> 00:28:24,870
You've raised this caution
around never pressuring

487
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:30,360
the victim to forgive,
which I think points

488
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:34,920
to a potential problem, which
is that, we don't always

489
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:42,030
have between the perpetrator and
the victim a balance of power.

490
00:28:42,030 --> 00:28:47,070
Can you speak to potential
power differentials in this work

491
00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:50,370
of t'shuvah, and in
particular, forgiveness?

492
00:28:50,370 --> 00:28:54,420
So often what happens
is that harm is caused

493
00:28:54,420 --> 00:28:55,980
with an imbalance of power.

494
00:28:55,980 --> 00:29:00,240
Someone who has more power
in a situation causes harm,

495
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,830
and then there is pressure
on the victim to forgive,

496
00:29:04,830 --> 00:29:06,960
which is often
read in our culture

497
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,210
as a way of kind of allowing
the situation to end.

498
00:29:12,210 --> 00:29:13,110
Then we're done.

499
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:14,190
The victim has forgiven.

500
00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:16,360
No more accountability
work is needed.

501
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,030
We don't need to have
any more systemic change,

502
00:29:21,030 --> 00:29:24,330
or we don't need the perpetrator
to do any more inner work

503
00:29:24,330 --> 00:29:27,390
or come to a situation and
make different choices.

504
00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:29,910


505
00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:34,050
And it becomes a
way of, very often,

506
00:29:34,050 --> 00:29:38,080
trying to reinscribe the
original power situation.

507
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,030
Rabbi Ruttenberg, what, when
you look into this broken world,

508
00:29:43,030 --> 00:29:44,920
what brings you hope?

509
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,020


510
00:29:48,020 --> 00:29:51,770
The fact that more people are
having these conversations.

511
00:29:51,770 --> 00:29:54,530
The fact that more people are
taking this work seriously.

512
00:29:54,530 --> 00:29:59,090
The fact that more and
more people are saying,

513
00:29:59,090 --> 00:30:04,610
it's not enough to leave
things as they are.

514
00:30:04,610 --> 00:30:10,250
We need more healing,
more repair, more care.

515
00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:13,830
And these are hard times.

516
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:17,720
These are really hard
times in so many ways.

517
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,150
But I believe in us.

518
00:30:20,150 --> 00:30:24,740
And I have seen so many
individuals and communities

519
00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:27,210
showing up when it matters.

520
00:30:27,210 --> 00:30:31,740
And I know that
we can, together,

521
00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:34,770
come together and
care for one another

522
00:30:34,770 --> 00:30:39,457
and create a future that is so
much more whole than the past

523
00:30:39,457 --> 00:30:40,290
we have left behind.

524
00:30:40,290 --> 00:30:43,300


525
00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:47,530
As we approach
the Days of Awe, I

526
00:30:47,530 --> 00:30:51,460
find hope in the path of
repair that you illuminate,

527
00:30:51,460 --> 00:30:55,300
and in the approach
that you teach,

528
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:58,810
which is, the path is
not insurmountable,

529
00:30:58,810 --> 00:31:01,570
the work is not infinite.

530
00:31:01,570 --> 00:31:07,090
Our job is to start where
we can, go as far as we can,

531
00:31:07,090 --> 00:31:10,270
and do our best in
this work of t'shuvah.

532
00:31:10,270 --> 00:31:16,500
Do our best in all the areas
we have power to bring repair.

533
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:18,810
Thank you for your teachings.

534
00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:20,070
Thank you.

535
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:20,850
Thank you so much.

536
00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:22,100
L'shanah tovah.

537
00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:23,950
Shanah tovah.

538
00:31:23,950 --> 00:31:37,000